464-SYB-Tiffany-Hawk.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Carol Cox:
If you’ve been feeling like your voice is a little quieter than it should be, or you’re not sure if your story matters, this episode is for you. You’re going to love my conversation with repeat guest Tiffany Hawk on this episode of the Speaking Your Brand podcast. Hi, and welcome to the Speaking Your Brand podcast. I’m your host, Carol Cox. Today my guest is Tiffany Hawk, a return guest. This is the third time she’s been on the podcast. I’ll make sure to include links in the show notes to the previous two episodes. You’ll definitely want to check those out. What we’re going to talk about today is why it’s so important to tell your story and share your message, even if, and especially if, I would say you don’t feel ready. This goes for your public speaking for maybe a book that you want to write wherever you want to use your voice. And this is especially true because it’s March and this is Women’s History Month. As those of you who’ve been listening to the podcast for a while, know my master’s degree is in history with a focus on women’s history and gender studies. I gravitated towards history because I was always looking for the women in the stories.
Carol Cox:
I wanted to know as I was reading these history books, what were the women thinking? What were they doing? What were their ideas for a better society? And too often they were just literally missing. They were nowhere there. So that’s why when studied history, because I was looking for the women. And that’s exactly why I love the work that we do here at Speaking Your Brand, because we help women tell their stories not only for themselves, but for that positive impact in your industry and in your community. Well, my guest, Tiffany Hawk, is definitely along the same lines. She is a published author, and we’re going to talk about another book that she has along the way and her experiences with that, that you’re going to learn a lot from. She’s also a book coach. We have worked together closely for the past five years. I can’t believe it’s been five years. We have run retreats together. She’s been to speaking your brand retreat that we held. We’re going to talk more about an upcoming retreat that we have later this year that you’ll definitely going to want to learn about. Tiffany, welcome back to the podcast.
Tiffany Hawk:
Thank you. Hi. And I don’t know if you remember this, but my undergraduate degree is in history.
Carol Cox:
So there you go. That’s, that’s why this is why we’re such a great pair. I love it. Okay, so Tiffany, before we get into talking more specifics about writing and books and using your voice, whether it’s through the written word or through the spoken word, tell us a little bit. Give us a recap of your background and how you got to the work that you do here today.
Tiffany Hawk:
Oh, well, it’s a little some of it’s an accident. Like I was a journalist and then I got my MFA in creative writing and became a published novelist. And then the coaching part happened by accident because people just started coming to me for how did you navigate the publishing industry? How did you make this happen? So I started working with friends and their referrals and then started really having success in helping people, land agents and get book deals. And it kind of became my thing. And unintentionally. But it’s been really, really fun. And I love especially working with women.
Carol Cox:
Well, I have been through your breakthrough book proposal program that you ran that you run online. I went through it a couple of years ago. And as I mentioned, we hosted a joint writing and speaking retreat last year. In 2025, we have another one coming up this year that I, I’ll again, we’ll talk about a little bit more in a second, but so, Tiffany, tell me a little bit about the women that you work with. So when they come to you, what stage are they in generally with the books that they’re working on? Why do they want to write a book? What kinds of books are they working on? What are their goals for their books? So kind of give me a profile of these women.
Tiffany Hawk:
So as far as where they’re starting, they’re coming in from all different places. But what they have, like from just having an idea to having a proposal that for some reason isn’t working and they need help making it better so that they get interest from agents and from publishers, or if they decide they want to self-publish. So the people that I’m working with, especially women who have something to say that whether it’s a memoir or it’s more of a teaching book or something along their expertise or business book, health book, what they have in common is something that can not just be a vanity project, but help people see the world in a new way. It might be just seeing a different perspective, or actually helping the reader with something of their own that they’re going through, if it was more prescriptive nonfiction. So no matter where they’re coming in, some people are wanting to traditionally publish, some are wanting to self-publish, and most are open to both. I’m finding more and more every year people are open to both, which I think is really smart because I think it’s a lot less about the mode of publication and more about having those. The key foundation is the same no matter how you want to publish. If you don’t have those key ingredients, you’re ingredients, you’re not going to be successful at either of them.
Carol Cox:
And what drives them to want to write a book? Are they seeing it as a as an asset for their business? Have they always wanted to be a writer and publish a book? Are they looking at it as one more thing to check off the list that we think that we’re supposed to be doing?
Tiffany Hawk:
Oh, I think most people have a little bit of all of those things. But the last one, if you’re doing it just to check something off the list, I don’t think you should be doing it. It’s not the time you really need to have something that you’re burning to say in order to go through the long haul of the process, but also to have a book that stands out and that is meaningful. And there’s way too many books out there for people to gravitate towards something that’s just, you know, can I say half assed? Yes, yes, that’s out there. So some people are burning to write a book and I and they’ve just always wanted to see their, um, I mean, not just see their name in print. That’s a little bit just of an ego thing, but really wanted to write a book. They’re book lovers, or they have something that lends itself to that medium. Other people do see it as a tool for their business or for their thought leadership, which I think is great because it is. I mean, especially when we’re talking about speakers, having a book is going to make it a lot easier to land speaking gigs, and then at an event that is the best possible place to be selling your book. But I really encourage people to see it as more than that, not just a sales tool, because again, you need to be coming up with something that is original and meaningful that you care about beyond just ticking that box or using it. You want something that’s going to connect with the reader and we can talk about how to make that happen too.
Carol Cox:
Yes. And, and this is, I think, why the work that we do is so well aligned and why a lot we share a number of the same clients is because we are approaching it from the same way. Thought leadership. What is that unique perspective that you have that you want to share? Embedding your story why this matters to you. Your personal journey, or why this has impacted you into the message that you’re sharing. Because you, again, want to have this positive change in the world. You want to see things that could be better, better best practices in your industry or for the people that you happen to work with. And so I agree with you that just churning out a book for the sake of churning out a book, which heck, ChatGPT could do for you right now, you don’t need any of those.
Tiffany Hawk:
We do not.
Carol Cox:
Yes. And I feel like, and I say this a lot as a speaker, is that you learn so much about yourself as a speaker by going through the process of creating what we call a signature talk, because it really is a reflection of your values, your mission, the work that you want to put into the world, that bigger message that you want to share. And I and Tiffany sounds like a book is the same thing, but it is even more, it takes even more time to create a great book than it does to create a great talk.
Tiffany Hawk:
That is very true. But you’re 100% right. I think in the writing of the book, a lot of people worry that they’re thinking in their head and the book doesn’t seem ready. And it probably isn’t. It never is when you start, but it’s the doing. It is where you start to get that angle and to hone that idea and to learn more about what it is you’re trying to say while you’re wrestling through it. So it’s not about coming up with exactly how you want it to be and then executing it. It’s it’s in the doing and in the writing is where you start to find your answers and your meaning.
Carol Cox:
I think that is, that is so helpful, Tiffany, because I know that for sure. A lot of the listeners are like us introverts because we are introverts, even though we do work, you know, speaking and workshops and all of those introverts, and I probably live 99% of my life in my head and I have great conversations with myself in my head. But as far as like producing content, whether it’s a talk or a book or what have you, you have to actually do. You have to actually do the thing. Not just keep it swirling in your head.
Tiffany Hawk:
And I’m having that problem with the talk that I’m working on right now. It’s swirling in my head and I need to sit down and start just working through it and know that, as Anne Lamott says, you just have to start with a shitty first draft. And sometimes and if we talk about my book, even something worse than that, like that doesn’t wouldn’t even count as a shitty first draft, because then you’ve got material and you can start organizing what has been in your head. And I know I’m never going to get there with this talk until I do that.
Carol Cox:
Well, that’s why you need me.
Tiffany Hawk:
I do, and that’s why we’re going to schedule something right after this, right?
Carol Cox:
Exactly.
Tiffany Hawk:
I definitely need you.
Carol Cox:
I know as a recovering perfectionist and someone who likes to put out good quality work, and, you know, I take pride in the work that I do. It is really hard for me to do the shitty first draft because of the editing in place, which I know you’re not supposed to do when you’re, when you’re writing. And, and I, I know I need to build the muscle memory of just letting it be bad and letting it be bad for a while before it gets good. Do you have any tips for me or for anyone listening?
Tiffany Hawk:
Just. Yeah, you absolutely have to embrace that. For one thing, it’s like two different parts of your brain. The part of your brain that’s doing the editing is not creative at all. Like I find when I’m the most creative and I’m really just in flow, I’m literally spelling things completely wrong, like I’m choosing the wrong two, 2 or 2. I mean, just on really basic things, spelling wildly wrong because I’m in that creative flow that doesn’t edit or get things right. And I one of the, I think it was Stephen King. I really need to find this attribution because I quote this all the time. And I never remember for sure if it’s him, but it has. This image of the first draft is like creating a sculpture, but the first draft is digging up the clay and then like it’s nothing yet, it’s just a ball of clay, and then you can start shaping it into something very, very vaguely in the realm of what you’re trying to create. And gradually you get to where you’re chiseling out little tiny features. And a lot of people start doing the chiseling over and over and over of their first few paragraphs or their first few chapters, and never can finish the project because they don’t let themselves get into that creative flow where, I mean, like my latest book, I probably wrote twice as many words as what are actually in it and throughout what would be half of the amount of work that I put in. And that’s just where you ultimately have to get. And that sounds like a lot of time that’s daunting, right? That’s like, I’m never writing a book.
Carol Cox:
This is like 70,000 words, right? In an average book.
Tiffany Hawk:
Depending on the genre. Yeah, around 70 to 90,000 words. Mine’s a little too long still probably at 95,000 words, but it’s working. But and it depends, like sci fi can be 120,000 words and fantasy. So it depends very much on the genre. But we’re talking a lot like 300 something pages for an adult book, nonfiction generally a little bit shorter if it’s prescriptive. But yeah, you’re putting in a lot of work. Now, some people though, to go on a total tangent, people are usually in one of two camps. You write short and it’s not at all long enough for a book, and then you have to go in and flush it out. That was always me, my entire career as a journalist and with my first book. And then some people write long, and then you have to cut and pull things out and shape it that way. So when my book came in at 110,000 words, this time I did not know what to do. I knew how to help other people. But I’m like, wait, I write short and I flesh out. So I was a bit overwhelmed with that and it was very hard to cut, but it was very necessary.
Carol Cox:
Well, I think editing and curation is a superpower that goes underrated. Whether it’s books, essays, news articles, public public speaking. You know, talks, speeches, Ted talks. I find that actually the shorter it is, the tighter it is because of because of having to edit down. And I’m obviously a book can’t be 20,000 words if it’s supposed to be 80,000 words. But there is a lot, especially for prescription nonfiction, maybe a little bit different than a novel or a memoir. I feel like being able to you as the creator of it, being able to discern what is that through line? What is the most important thing for the reader to take away, and staying true to that through line versus kind of like going all over the place in your book and maybe potentially losing, losing the reader because you’re going too far afield from where they’re, where they are comfortable with, or whether you have led them so far.
Tiffany Hawk:
Absolutely. And it always goes back to that. Is it Mark Twain, that quote, I’m sorry, I didn’t have time to write it or sorry my letter so long. I didn’t have time to write a shorter one.
Carol Cox:
Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Right. All right. So then before we get into your the the book that you’ve been working on, I want to talk to you more about that. And Alana, a lot of the women that we work with, they are entrepreneurs or they’re professionals, executives in their careers. And so they have a lot of expertise. They have degrees and credentials, credentials. They’ve been working in their field, in their industry for a long time and in their business for a while. And I know I talk quite a bit on this podcast about this idea of the expert trap that as experts in well qualified and we have earned our expertise and should be, we should be very proud of that. But we cling so tightly to it that we end up losing that connection with our audience, whether it’s an audience we’re speaking to or the reader who is reading our work. And we lose that connection because we’re unwilling to share anything of ourselves that is meaningful or that is going to create intimacy through vulnerability. And I’ve had to learn this throughout my career because I definitely was not the kind of speaker or writer who would who was like, well, I’m going to give you my tips and my teachings and here’s, here’s what I learned here. And you can learn from me. I didn’t even cross my mind to do it any other way. And obviously now, over the years, I have learned not only from seeing the results from what I have put out, but from working with so many of our clients and them seeing the results of being willing to go deeper into their personal journey, into their stories. So Tiffany, with the women that you have worked with, where do you feel like they struggle with this? The ones that do and what, how, what recommendations do you have for them?
Tiffany Hawk:
Oh yeah. I think the people that I work with and, and I can relate to this too. The more you become an expert, the more likely you are to have a hard time being vulnerable and sharing your story. Because when you’re out of the habit, it’s very easy now for you to share your expertise and your tips and all that, just because you do it day in and day out. And to you, you kind of build up this armor of expertise that you have to be able to kind of chink away at to be able to get back to that vulnerability. And then there’s that fear. If I’m vulnerable, is this going to undermine my career? Is this going to make me seem like less of an expert when that’s what I’ve been relying on? But story is so, so important. Um, kind of going back to the journalism thing, they always talk about if you give somebody a number like, oh, in this whatever tragedy is, 10,000 people died, people go, oh, that’s too bad. That’s tragic. And that’s it. But if you focus on one person or one family or one specific place and you tell that story, people are going to be moved by it and they’re going to jump into action and do something. So that’s why whenever you’re listening to this, whether it’s years later or right when it airs, there’s something going on in the world that you can see that happening right now, that you’re being moved by small stories in a larger thing, as opposed to the big numbers.
Tiffany Hawk:
But the other thing is that story, especially right now, when people feel lonely and people feel at odds, maybe with their neighbors. And the more we connect both in real life but also through story, whether it’s on paper, whether it’s on podcast or at a live event. The more not alone you feel, the more connected you can be to other people through that story. I go every month to this local storytellers group. This this really cool female storytellers group, and five people get up on stage and tell a story from their life. And even if you are never the one reading, even if you don’t know the person on stage, there is this atmosphere, this collective. I’m getting chills literally right now just thinking about this. My friends and I go, it’s our happy place. There’s this collective just safety and joy and ability for even the listener to feel vulnerable because someone else is sharing of themselves. And you know, you’re not the only one that has gone through these things and that it’s safe to feel them in this environment.
Carol Cox:
Yes. And so two things that come to mind. First is about the containers that we create for the women who we work with. And I’ll come back to that in just a moment. But I was thinking about again, since this is Women’s History Month right now in the month of March, is that the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s and the women’s rights movement that came after that, and the gay rights movement after that, the the the impetus for them, for a lot of the people in that movement was literally getting together in each other’s living rooms and sharing personal stories about their experiences, experiences at home, experiences, not getting the jobs or the careers that they wanted, experiences raising families and, and until they shared that with each other, they thought it was just them. It was an isolated experience. Oh, it was just me. You know, my choices or my limitations. But the ones they started talking to each other and sharing their stories, they realized, oh, it’s bigger than just one of us. This is a whole system that we need to work on changing. It’s not just one of us. And I feel like that is the power of personal narrative is not only do you help one other person in your audience not feel alone, which is tremendously valuable. But then the more people who are sharing, you start to realize, oh, there’s more we can do here to make this better for more people.
Tiffany Hawk:
Yes. I mean, just think of the last few years, whether it’s me too, or anytime you go to a protest and you’re just around other people that are willing to, there’s so much trying to make us scared and make us silent. Everybody, but also women especially, and people of color and people that are queer, all different groups that they want us to be afraid. And I mean, don’t even get started on immigration. And when people aren’t, when somebody stands up and you can go into a group at a protest or any other thing like that, you feel emboldened and safer and like you’re not alone and you’re willing to do it. So we have the ability to help other people do that when we’re able to get together or tell our story, even though it’s scary and I get scared getting on stage and or even just in a group. I still get nervous raising my hand in a class, but we have to do it because look at the power that’s in it.
Carol Cox:
Yes. Well, and you know, I think most of us still get nervous that it’s not, you know, it’s that obviously our bodies are responding to the environment and what is going on. So it’s nervous. It’s it’s okay to feel nervous. And then but I feel like when one of us does it, then more people have the courage to do it as well. And so when.
Tiffany Hawk:
We do it, we build the courage. It’s kind of like the creativity. You don’t get the courage and then do it. You do it and that gives you the courage. Can I tell a story about going to your retreat? And then what happened to me after that? So I went to your treat about that.
Carol Cox:
Yeah.
Tiffany Hawk:
I was the most nervous person there for sure. I’m like, I’m a writer. I’m not a speaker, but I just feel like I need to be here so I can get better at this. Um, and then I did a workshop shortly after that at Stanford that went really well. And then I know we talked about that on a previous podcast, but we haven’t talked about this one. So that went really well. I had my speaker notes though. I was very comfortable. I was able to let you know, on the, um, the PowerPoint speaker notes so I could look down there and know exactly what I was going to say. And then the next time I went, I had a different computer. Somehow the OS was not working with their system. And I’m up in front of this group. Like I would have called in sick if I knew this was going to happen. I would have said my plane didn’t make it or whatever. I did not think I had this in me. There’s no way I could do this without passing out. But all the students are there watching and I have no notes at all. And I just had to wing it all day for two straight days and I was fine. There were parts that were not as smooth or that might be confusing. So people had questions. But ever since then, now I know I can do it. And it was not as polished as the first version.
Tiffany Hawk:
There were parts, like I said, that were confusing, but I connected with people more because I wasn’t referring to that. I wasn’t trying to be that perfectionist and get it right. I was just engaging more. So then the next time I went, I knew the parts. The only parts that I really needed to get exactly right or confusion would be opened up. So I focused more on memorizing those, gave myself a few extra little prompts on the slides that were very basic before. Just enough in case I got lost and I got comfortable with the idea of just saying, wait, give me a second, I forgot where I was or something, and that I my readings went so far. I mean, I always had really, really good ratings. I didn’t think they could go up. It was like 4.75 because these are anonymous. I got a ratings of five across the board. Every single person in that room. I didn’t even know that was possible. And I think it was because I was able to get up there and be more comfortable and engaged and talking, as opposed to getting it just right, trying to go by my notes. And I wouldn’t have done even the one with notes if it wasn’t for your retreat. But being forced into it taught me to be more comfortable because I know I can do it.
Carol Cox:
Oh, I love hearing that, Tiffany. It’s so funny because at our the the workshops and retreats that we run for speaking your brand specifically for speakers, they work on their story or their message in the morning, and then we have them practice in the afternoon and we do not allow them to have any notes, no notes, no script, no slides for their five minute practice on the stage. And trust me, they are terrified. They’re like deer in the headlights. What are you making us do? How can we possibly do this? We do not know what we’re going to say. And every single time every woman gets on that stage and does an amazing job because they didn’t think that they could do it until we believed in them. And we. And we 100% believe that they can do it and they do it. So like giving us that little push. And we’ve also, I mentioned this idea of building the container. So we. And I know, Tiffany, you and I did this when we ran that writing and speaking retreat last year is creating the supportive container where we, we, we understand the narrative arc that we’re taking the women on during the multiple multi-day retreat to build them up, to have the confidence to do this and getting them to believe we believe in them, the other women believe in them. And so then they start believing in themselves as the days progress. And I feel like it is such it is such an honor to be able to do that, to have women feel truly seen and understood for who they are, especially in this day and age where I feel like that is in shorter supply.
Tiffany Hawk:
Oh yes, that was one of my best experiences of my life. That was such an uplifting group. What what an incredible thing to witness and be part of.
Carol Cox:
Well, then, let’s talk about the next one we are doing, which we have been teasing now throughout this entire episode. So we are recording this right now in March 2026. So coming up at the end of September 2026, we are hosting a seven night, eight day story to spotlight writing and speaking retreat in Spain. That’s right. We’re going international this year. It is going to be so much fun. We we have this amazing villa. Everyone has their own room, all the food, beverages, the excursions, everything is included. But most of all, you’re getting out of your normal everyday environment where, let’s face it, like I’m going to go put another load of laundry in once I’m done here recording this podcast. And then I got to feed the cat and then I got to go do this and I got to jump on another Zoom call. So do I do like the deep work that I know I should be doing no, because, you know, there’s too many distractions. But having that time, that focus that out of the your usual element, but then being around this amazing group of women, I’m, I’m inspired already. So Tiffany, tell us a little bit more about the retreat and what you’re most looking forward to.
Tiffany Hawk:
Well, I can’t wait. And part of it is like you’re saying, getting out of your day to day, but also it’s getting away from this news cycle and also all of the things that make you. I don’t know how I’m trying to say this, but you know, your identity that can can pile up on you and make it harder to get to your most authentic voice. When you can step out of that and be somewhere away from all that, get back to who you actually are outside of whatever role you’re playing in your life as a wife, a mom, a worker, an entrepreneur, whatever it is, stepping away. And then novelty in general is proven as, you know, a huge thing for creativity. And I learned this when I had to write on deadline at a magazine. It doesn’t have to be novelty of going to Spain. Going and writing in the lunchroom at my office instead of in my office. Sometimes was what I needed to be able to make new connections and be creative again. So I’m really excited about that part. And having everybody there in that environment to encourage each other to give feedback. You and I are going to give people personal one on one feedback, but also getting it from the other people in your group and seeing what works, what doesn’t, what excites people so that you can notice what makes you special and having that time to work on it is invaluable. I know I have to get away.
Tiffany Hawk:
Um, I’ve talked to you about this. Like to finish my book with kids in a business. I didn’t do it for you. It’s been 13 years since my last book. Yeah, I felt like I’m a has been. I can’t write anymore. I’ve lost my voice. I can’t finish a book. And I finally decided, okay, I’m going to do this. I’m giving myself six months and if I don’t, I will finish it. But if it’s terrible, I’ll be done and I’m going to give up and I’m not going to try to write another book. I’ll just keep working with my clients. But part of how I was able to do it, besides having that deadline, was I would go for like 3 or 4 days to just achieve like Hampton in whatever was cheapest at the time, because I did this a few different times. Doubletree, Hampton Inn, whatever. And just right, right, right, right, right, right, right. Like for 18 straight hours, because I wasn’t having to come in and out of the story, I was able to give it that, that space and let my unconscious mind really give everything to that instead of all the other things that I would be working on or like you said, laundry and different distractions and mom, mom, mom, mom, I would, I felt like I would get six months of worth work done in like three days. It was pretty crazy. And I finished.
Carol Cox:
Yes. Yeah.
Tiffany Hawk:
I didn’t think I could, but I did.
Carol Cox:
We’re still going to talk about your new book here in just a moment. So let me let me think about the so the retreat we had last year, I know that so many of the women that are that were there still keep in touch with each other. So we had ten of them together and they still email each other. A few of them have actually self-published books since then, because that is the direction that they wanted to go in. So their books are out there. A lot of them are doing speaking engagements, contributing essays to industry associations that they’re in. I know that so many of them said how life changing it was not just for the what they got from us, as far as, you know, the one on one sessions and getting our feedback and coaching from them, but really being around other women who are in similar stages in life, you know, like minded values wise and really looking to use their voice in a way where, you know, they, they want that extra encouragement, they want that community of support and having. That I have seen since the. Almost a year since we did the last one. How much they have blossomed and grown from that experience that they had together?
Tiffany Hawk:
Absolutely. And I feel like I have too. I got as much out of that as anyone else there.
Carol Cox:
Yeah, absolutely. So for those of you who are interested in checking it out, go to speaking your Brand.com again, that’s speaking your Brand.com Spain. That page will redirect you to the page. That’s a joint page between myself and Tiffany that has all the details about the entire retreat, the dates, the location, everything that’s included. Photos, testimonials from the women who attended our joint retreat last year. Why? This is a retreat for you to tap into your authentic voice. Create those breakthroughs, get that personalized plan and timeline for actually coming in with your project, and you could be anywhere in your book project. You could just be at the idea stage. You could already have started working on writing it. Maybe you’re working on the book proposal. Whatever stage that you’re at, we’re going to help give you some direction before you even get to the retreat, and then give you direction afterwards, because after the retreat is over, we’re going to give everyone a couple of weeks to get settled back in. And then we’re going to have four weekly Zoom calls with all the women who are there to help, to give you that sense of momentum and accountability and support afterwards, so that you’re ending the year really strong and you know exactly what you need to do as you close out 2026 and go into 2027. So I’m excited about those follow up Zoom calls as well.
Tiffany Hawk:
Oh yeah, me too, because I’ve been guilty of this and I know other people are. You go to this amazing conference, retreat, workshop, whatever it is. All these great ideas when you leave and you’re so excited, then you go back to normal life and don’t do anything with it. Oh my gosh, I’ve spent so much time and money on things that I’ve done that with. So I’m really happy that we both wanted to do this, like implementation calls to keep people going and give them that accountability. And I can’t remember if you said this, so I want to make sure people know this isn’t for fiction, it’s for non-fiction. Whether we’re talking about a memoir, that’s your personal story or something more prescriptive. That’s how to or about narrative nonfiction, nonfiction, like history or science or something like that, but not fiction.
Carol Cox:
Right? So if you’re an entrepreneur and you have a business and say you are a speaker or you want to do more speaking, you could write what we call a prescriptive nonfiction book, which is kind of a how to, but not like a, you know, do these five things. I mean, it could be do these five things, but it’s in a book format, not in a like checklist format.
Tiffany Hawk:
Yeah. But we are open to talks and essays as well if people are wanting to do that. And I know that sounds like it’s all over the place, but it’s not because it’s the same fundamentals and we’re going to work on the structure and really roll up our sleeves and figure out what makes this special? How are you going to make it stand out? Who’s your audience? And then what is the structure? What are we going to pull in here, whether it’s short form or long form?
Carol Cox:
Yes, exactly. So for an entire book feels like too much of a heavy lift right now. So that is not on your plate. That is okay. You can come, you can just work on finding and using your voice. What is that authentic voice that honestly gets? I know that mine has gotten lost off and on over the years where it kind of drifts away, and then I have to like, rein it back in because I feel myself diluting my voice kind of coming back to what I think the internet wants or the algorithms want, or what all the stuff that’s been going on in the news over the past year plus wants women not to be sane. And I know we’re all susceptible to this. And so I that’s why I need this community of women to, to remind me to remind all of us how important it is for us to keep using our voices to say the things that need to be said, obviously, in a way that’s appropriate for us and, you know, our businesses and our careers and all of that. But to to really not be silent. I had a guest on last month who said basically, don’t let someone silence you. Like, don’t sound like yourself before someone else has a chance to silence you. Right? And I think, and I feel like we do that a lot of times.
Tiffany Hawk:
Oh, we do that all the time. I do, I should say. I do that all the time. I’m working my way out of that.
Carol Cox:
Yes, we all do. Which is why we keep needing these reminders and, and, and to be around each other to encourage us to do so. Okay. So we’ve talked about the second book that you were working on, the one that you already wrote 180,000 words for, and then through.
Tiffany Hawk:
Oh, well, maybe, maybe it was that much.
Tiffany Hawk:
Is that what I. Yeah, I would believe it. Yeah, I’ve probably been right.
Carol Cox:
Okay. So what can you tell us about the book and what stage is it at and what have you learned through this process?
Tiffany Hawk:
Oh my gosh, I can’t talk too much. It’s a psychological thriller set in Tucson and I don’t know what all I’d have to ask my new almost agent what I can say online about exactly what the hook is. But yeah, it. Psychological thriller set in Tucson for now. We’re gonna leave it at that. We’re gonna leave it at that. So it’s fiction. Despite me saying, oh, we’re not doing fiction. At that workshop, I wrote another novel. Um, I had just sat on this for years and years and years and felt like I didn’t have the time. Nobody would want to hear it. I was just focused on work, didn’t want to take time away from the kids. And I just had lost belief in myself. Like, talk about silencing yourself like I had for many years accidentally become financially dependent on my husband because he was in the military and we were moving and moving and moving. And that was just chipping away more and more and more and more at my career. Um, that really led to a lot of self silencing because I felt so dependent in that way. And, and this is what actually the talk that I want to work with you on and I like Brene Brown says you can’t selectively numb. I don’t believe you can selectively silence. So when I was not saying things I needed to be saying in my life and in my marriage because I was worried about health insurance and finances and all these things, which was good for neither of us.
Tiffany Hawk:
Um, it started to snowball into being quiet in other places. And then I gradually started speaking out, taking your class because I know I needed to or your workshop. Um, a little by little until I finally started to regain a little bit of my voice. But I’ll tell you, I still did not believe I decided to do this book. I had heard a podcast with Taffy Brodesser-akner who wrote, uh, Fleishman is in Trouble, which is just one of the best books ever. And I’ve followed her career for a long time. And she said on this podcast that she did what I earlier told you I did. She took six months. She dialed back on work. She didn’t ignore her kids, but she, you know, took time away from her family and only gave it that time and she was going to be done. She had to know if she could do it. And if it didn’t work out, now she’s going to go back to her family, whatever. She can’t take more than six months out of their income and out of their lives. So I said, I’m going to do this exact same thing. I mean, not if she can do it. I can do it because she’s like one of the most brilliant writers in the entire world. And my book does not come near her level. But I liked the structure of that and the limited time, so that I could say, I am going to neglect other things.
Tiffany Hawk:
I’m going to dial back on work. I’m going to make less money. This is going to pinch. I’m probably going to take a hit in terms of my business and, you know, thought leadership and all of that. I’m going to make my kids crazy and I’m going to sit here while they’re doing what they’re doing, and I’m going to be typing all the time. I’m going to get up at 4:00 in the morning or 3:00 in the morning. Perimenopause helps with that because half the time I wake up anyways. But all right, I’ll get up and I’ll go down and turn on the fireplace or sit outside or whatever, depending on what time of year it is. And I did it. I had that shitty first draft and it was so shitty, I. I said, this is not even going to come to that level. This is going to be a prototype or a barf draft, as some people say. And I had that and I couldn’t believe it because I really kind of had started to believe that I couldn’t do this, even though I’m helping people do this day in, day out, getting my students and clients agents and book deals and self-publishing awards and all kinds of things. Some part of me didn’t believe, and I realized that when I finished it, but then came editing it, and this whole time I just kept taking action. I still didn’t believe I should tell you part of why.
Tiffany Hawk:
Not only had it been a long time since I’d written the book, since having kids and starting a business and moving a million times, but I did write a book after my first one came out 13 years ago, and my agent hated it. It wasn’t good. I did it like I tell people not to because I needed to check the box. It was time. It had been two years. I needed another book to come out and it was okay. It was proficient. It was fine. You know, the sentences she said, were slick and professional, but she was completely right. Like this was not a story I was burning to tell. It was really, really blah. And she wasn’t going to sell it. And that really threw me. And so for the longest time, I didn’t really just didn’t believe I had it anymore. She said to me, it’s been a while since your last book, but didn’t you used to be funny? And that that really burned and that is stuck in my head for a long time. Lovely woman. We’re still friends. She’s only representing non-fiction now. So I also needed to start from scratch. I needed to find a new literary agent. So I finished. But then it was like, am I going to be able to find an agent? She hated my old book. I’m starting from scratch. Yes, I teach people day in, day out how to do this, but now that adds me pressure on me because it’s like, oh, if I try this and I fail now I look like I can’t do my job.
Tiffany Hawk:
And I’m like, just, I can’t even do what I’m teaching. So I put all this pressure on myself. But I just kept taking action. And I worked with an editor, and then the first couple agents I sent it to rejected it because that’s pretty normal. But then two people came back and absolutely loved it and wanted to represent it. And that was the point where I realized, oh, I haven’t believed all this time, because suddenly I did believe because these are really great agents. So then I followed up with the other people who were reading the full manuscript, and then I had three more people want to offer on it, which I don’t know how much your listeners know, but that’s really, really rare. Still doesn’t mean I’m going to get a book deal, but there’s a lot of excitement and momentum right now. I’m kind of trying to decide who I’m going to work with, which is quite a champagne problem to have. But until that happened, I didn’t believe in myself anymore, and now I’m just thanking myself for doing it, for putting one foot in front of the other and like, Holy cow, I did it. I can’t believe I got to this point or that I had so little belief. It’s kind of silly, but it’s natural, I guess, for us to do that.
Carol Cox:
What kept driving you forward?
Tiffany Hawk:
At first it was just that deadline. I was not going to get to that because I knew I had to quit. Like if I, at six months couldn’t do this, it was pack it up and put it away and focus on my family and my business and be done. And I can just let that go and know that it’s no good. But it was just held together just enough for me to say, okay, this has a beginning, middle and end. What can I do with it? It was that clay. I had the Stephen King clay to shape something with, and then the next draft, it was like, okay, this got just a little bit better. And also it was community too. I didn’t know anything about writing a thriller. I have a lot of experience in writing and editing and publishing. Nothing about thriller and plotting and all that. So I took a couple of different thriller writing classes and people in the classes and the teachers were like, oh, this is really, really good. So I will admit, like having that outside belief in me was really huge, I don’t know what would have happened if I didn’t have those people pushing. And then also one of the classes I took, I’m going to talk a lot more about this later once I’m through this process, but was with a, um, organization called the novel, which this is only for fiction, but they were instrumental in this whole entire process and I rave about them. They were really incredible. Uh, helped me a lot of the way. So having those people believe in me was, I guess just enough, even though I didn’t still believe to keep going.
Carol Cox:
Oh, I love this, Tiffany. Well, first, congratulations. I am so excited for you.
Carol Cox:
To read it. Once it’s out, hopefully I’ll at least get an advanced galley copy okay.
Carol Cox:
I don’t have to wait until actual publication date.
Tiffany Hawk:
No.
Carol Cox:
Okay, so congratulations on that. But to your point, you know, again, like you mentioned, the importance of community, but also constraints. And I feel like that is also what happens so, so much. Is that why we don’t ever finish Whatever it is that we want to finish is that it’s always open ended because there are no constraints on it. This is why I love external deadlines, and I will tie a completion of something to an external deadline that I cannot change. It’s a conference that I’m speaking at and that’s the date of the conference. I can’t change it. So whatever it is, it has to be done. The reason this podcast, launched nine years ago in February 2017, is because I was speaking at a podcasting conference and I did not yet have a podcast. But by gosh, I had one two days before that conference started so.
Tiffany Hawk:
Yeah you know, you remind me, I also gave myself an external deadline. I had that initial six month deadline and then to edit it because now I’m getting tired. I hired an editor however many months later, I can’t quite remember, and I dropped thousands of dollars to have this, you know, someone who was really versed in crime and thrillers because I have friends and things that I could have had as beta readers, but I knew I wanted to do this at a professional level, and I needed professional help from someone, so I was I had already spent that money and booked that time, so I’ll be damned if I’m gonna waste that. I’m gonna make sure I edit it to the best of my ability before I get there. And you know, not even just edit, but revise and completely rewrite to get it ready for her. So definitely money where your mouth is and external deadlines for sure.
Carol Cox:
So our retreat in Spain this fall could be that external deadline, that constraint for you listening to get whatever that project is the book, the essay, the, the talk, however you want to use your voice to get that to the next stage in development because you’re going to be there and you’re going to be learning a lot from us and from the other women there, and you’re going to make progress in momentum on whatever it is that you’re working on.
Tiffany Hawk:
I love how neatly that came together. I wasn’t even thinking that when I said that about hiring an editor.
Carol Cox:
This is why I do the work I do because I got post-it notes everywhere in my brain.
Carol Cox:
I’m like, I’m like the, uh, the crime detective who is doing all of the string between the dots on the board.
Tiffany Hawk:
Oh, I did.
Tiffany Hawk:
That for my book. I’ll hire you next time to help me with it.
Carol Cox:
Oh, my God, I would love that.
Carol Cox:
Oh, there’s so much fun. All right, Tiffany, so tell us other ways that listeners can work with you.
Tiffany Hawk:
Well, I’m going to be reviving my breakthrough book proposal class, the one that you were in before. But for now, I’m going to do it a little bit differently. It’s only going to be for women and it’s going to be application only. And we’re going to have a very small, intimate group, 15 people only, so that we can get a lot more personalized attention. And I’m going to have agents and editors at the end of it that you can present your work to. Even if you’re not ready, they can be really, really invaluable resources for just hearing your hook and telling you what they see in it and where it might fit into the market, or things that you might want to think about and do Q and A and all of that. So I’m excited to launch that again. I don’t have a set date, but it won’t be for a few months for sure. I’m putting the finishing details because I want to make sure it’s very, um, that we have really, really great female authors as models in there and changing up some of the material, but making it very high end and exclusive and women.
Carol Cox:
Oh, that sounds great. All right.
Carol Cox:
Man but well, you know, and I, yeah, so I, I, you know, obviously a lot of our programs are women focused here speaking your brand, but we do have a number of male clients increasing. So I always say like, if you vibe with us, I’m more than happy to work with you one on one and we do. And, and it’s a lot of fun.
Tiffany Hawk:
And I do men can work with me one on one as well. I don’t have those launch, but I will be in the next couple months. I’m doing one on one intensives for book proposals.
Carol Cox:
Oh, fun. All right. So go to TiffanyHawk.com/intensive for this breakthrough proposal intensive. And we’ll have links in the show notes. And if you’re interested in learning more about this writing and speaking retreat story to Spotlight in Spain later this fall, go to speaking your brand.com/spain. Get all the details and apply. So we do the application form because then one of us will schedule a Zoom call with you. We just want to touch base with you and learn a little bit more about what you want to work on. Answer your questions about the retreat. Make sure it’s a great fit for what you’re you want to work on. And then, well, we’ll get you to the next step in the process. So we’re excited to, to bring all of this, this curated group of women together and to kind of get like, like Tiffany said, like get away from the news cycle and from social media and all the algorithms touch base again with who we are, our embodied selves and our voices and have an amazing time with great food and drink and excursions and, and whether, and just, uh, it’s going to be, it’s going to be wonderful.
Tiffany Hawk:
Yes. And you were saying private rooms, they’re like private casitas of their own with their own bathroom and their own terrace. So it’s going to be really hopefully just absolutely beautiful. I can’t wait.
Carol Cox:
And you can get those pictures on that. Speaking your Brand.com page. Go there. You can see pictures, even a little video of the villa as well. So again, the page is great. Tiffany did an amazing job putting all this together. So I think you have all the information that you need. So go ahead and apply so we can chat and learn more about you. All right. Well I think that’s it. Tiffany, thank you so much for coming on the Speaking Your Brand podcast.
Tiffany Hawk:
It’s been great being here. So much fun thank you.
Carol Cox:
Until next time. Thanks for listening.
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