Steps to Build Your Thought Leadership Platform with LuAnn Nigara, Tammy Lally, and Dr. Karen Wilson: Podcast Ep. 217

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What steps can you take to start building your thought leadership platform?

What are strategies you can use to build an audience and grow your business, speaking, and visibility?

This episode is a panel discussion from our Brave. Bold. Beyond. Live Virtual Summit that we held last October 2020.

(Our next event is coming up very soon on April 1, 2021! Register for free at https://www.speakingyourbrand.com/summit.)

Our panelists (LuAnn Nigara, Tammy Lally, and Dr. Karen Wilson) are all accomplished speakers, from having a podcast with over 3 million downloads to having a TEDx talk go viral with over 2 million views to being a sought-after presenter at top industry conferences.

You’ll hear us talk about:

  • What does being a thought leader mean to you?
  • If you had to pick one thing that was key to getting you from where you were 4 or 5 years ago to where you are today (in terms of your platform/success), what would it be?
  • What’s something you wished you had done early on when building your thought leadership platform?
  • What role has speaking played in developing your platform?
  • Do you ever get vulnerability hangovers? If so, what strategies do you use to work through them?

 

About Our Guests/Panelists: 

LuAnn Nigara is the host of the top-rated interior design podcast, A Well-Designed Business®, which recently surpassed 600 episodes and 3 million downloads. Her podcast was named in Architectural Digest as one of the top ten podcasts listened to by interior designers. LuAnn also hosts an annual event called LuAnn Live and has published several books. LuAnn began her career more than thirty years ago as a co-owner of Window Works, an award-winning window treatment and awning retailer in Livingston, NJ.

Tammy Lally is a published author, TEDx speaker, and Certified Money Coach. Her TEDx talk on money shame has been viewed over 2 million times. She helps others master their finances by first conquering their emotions around money, then by creating a comprehensive financial plan.

Dr. Karen Wilson is the founder of ChildNEXUS.com, which aims to dispel myths about issues related to pediatric mental health, disseminate information, and help parents make informed decisions when choosing providers for their children. She’s also a clinical neuropsychologist, with a private practice in Los Angeles, California, where she specializes in the neuropsychological assessment of children and adolescents. Karen is the host of the ChildNEXUS podcast.

About Us: The Speaking Your Brand podcast is hosted by Carol Cox. At Speaking Your Brand, we help women entrepreneurs and professionals clarify their brand message and story, create their signature talks, and develop their thought leadership platforms. Our mission is to get more women in positions of influence and power because it’s through women’s stories and visibility that we challenge the status quo and change existing systems. Check out our coaching programs at https://www.speakingyourbrand.com.

 

Links:

Show notes at https://www.speakingyourbrand.com/217

Register for free for our Brave. Bold. Beyond. Live Virtual Summit at https://www.speakingyourbrand.com/summit/.

Join our Thought Leader Academy at https://www.speakingyourbrand.com/academy/.

Websites:

Connect on LinkedIn:

Related Podcast Episodes:

217-SYB-Panel-on-Thought-Leadership.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

217-SYB-Panel-on-Thought-Leadership.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Carol Cox:
How can you build your thought leadership platform? Listen in to this panel discussion from our last summit on this episode of the Speaking Your Brand podcast.

Carol Cox:
More and more women are making an impact by starting businesses running for office and speaking up for what matters. With my background as a TV political analyst, entrepreneur and speaker, I interview and coach purpose driven women to shape their brands, grow their companies, and become recognized as influencers in their field. This is Speaking Your Brand, your place to learn how to persuasively communicate your message to your audience.

Carol Cox:
Hi there and welcome to the Speaking Your Brand podcast. This is your host, Carol Cox. I am so excited because our brave will be on live virtual summit is now just a week and a half away is coming up on Thursday, April 1st, 2021. We had our dress tech rehearsal last week with all 12 of our speakers, our speaking coaches, our panelists, our volunteer breakout session moderators. Everyone was on and it was so much fun to start hearing them and seeing them actually deliver their talks through the technology, through the event platform that we use. And you're not going to want to miss this event that's coming up on April 1st. So there is still time to register and it's entirely free to attend. So there's no reason not to register. We have 12 speakers who will be delivering ten minute TEDx style talks, sharing their powerful personal story that leads to their bigger message, the bigger idea that they want to share with you.

Carol Cox:
We also have two panel discussions, one on building your thought leadership platform, and the second one is on crafting a stellar speech, which is with our speaking coaches. And those are going to be fantastic. You'll have lots of takeaways from there. You'll also have the opportunity to attend breakout sessions with our speakers and speaking coaches. So you can ask your questions of them directly. You can come on video, you can come on audio only, or you can stay in the chat, whatever you would like to do, and you will have opportunities to do that throughout the day. You can register by going to speaking your brand slash summit again, that's speaking your brand slash summit. As we've been preparing for this summit, I was going back and re listening to and rewatching some of the segments from the one that we did this past October. And I was listening to the panel that we had on building your thought leadership platform. And it is so good. There are so many takeaways that you can use as speakers, as entrepreneurs, as content creators, as podcasters, that I decided to go ahead and release that prior panel discussion here on the podcast so that you can start thinking about how to build your own thought leadership platform. On that panel were LuAnn Nigara, Tammy Lally and Dr. Karen Wilson. Tammy Lally has a TEDx talk that I helped her create back in 2017 for TEDx Orlando that now has nearly 2.2 million views on it, which is absolutely incredible.

Carol Cox:
So in this panel discussion, you'll hear as I chat with Tammy about how that opportunity came up to speak at TEDx Orlando and what that impact has been on her, to have a talk that has gone viral, that has over 2 million views. The other panelist is LuAnna Nigara, who is the host of a podcast called A Well Designed Business Within the Interior Design Industry. That podcast now has well over 3 million downloads on it. Absolutely incredible. So LuAnn shares with us how she has built that podcast platform and her thought leadership platform. Related to that, she's also a keynote speaker and gets paid very well to go out and do keynote speeches. And I helped her create her very first keynote, must have been four years ago or so. And then Dr. Karen Wilson is our third panelist and Karen has a background in academia. She was a professor and now she has since then launched her own podcast and is going out on her own. So we talk about how she has built and continuing to build her thought leadership platform when it comes to specifically to speaking and now with podcasting, you are going to absolutely love this conversation. Make sure to register for the next summit that we have coming up so you'll you'll be able to get even more takeaways and even more strategies that you can use, again, as that speaking your brand dot com slash summit. Carol Cox: Now let's get on with the show.

Carol Cox:
Welcome. Thank you so much for being here. We are having an incredible day. I love to see all of your comments in the chat and all of the support that you have for our women's speakers and the amazing job that they are doing. I talked earlier about our new Thought Leader Academy program. If you would like to check it out, go to speaking your brand slash academy. We already have signups. I think people really want those bonuses. So remember the first four women who sign up for the academy with one on one coaching, get a podcast episode on speaking your brand in 2021. And by the way, my podcast queue is already full for 2020. This is why it's going to be in 2021. These are very coveted spots. So if you would like to join us, go to speak in your brand, IMG Academy. Now I am going to introduce the panelist for our building. Your thought. Leadership Platform panel. Now, these three women I specifically selected for this panel because I am so impressed with all of the work that they've done over the years, and I know them personally. So I know not only the work that they've done, but what kind generous women that they are.

Carol Cox:
So let me introduce first LuAnn Niagara, who began her career more than 30 years ago as a co-owner of Window Works, an award winning window treatment and awning retailer in Livingston, New Jersey. She's the host of the top rated I mean, top rated interior design podcast called a well designed business, which recently surpassed 600 episodes and 3 million. Yes, 3 million downloads. Amazing. Her podcast was recently named in Architectural Digest as one of the top ten podcasts listened to by interior designers. And I know LuAnn has been sharing about the summit on her social media. So every time I've seen a sign up for the summit that has an email address related to an interior design company, I know it's from you, LuAnn, so thank you so much for sharing it with your audience.

Carol Cox:
Our next panelist is Dr. Karen Wilson, who's the founder of Child Nexus, which aims to dispel myths about issues related to pediatric mental health, disseminate information and help parents make informed decisions when choosing providers for their children. She's also a clinical neuropsychologist with a private practice in Los Angeles, where she specializes in the neuropsychological assessment of children and adolescents. And Karen speaks frequently now, virtually, of course, but before COVID in person at national conferences and has been published in national journals.

Carol Cox:
Our third panelist is Tammy Lally, a published author, TEDx speaker and certified money coach. Her TEDx talk on Money Shame has been viewed over 2 million times. She helps others master their finances by first conquering their emotions around money, then by creating a comprehensive financial plan. Welcome to our panel.

Dr. Karen Wilson:
Thank you so much, Carol. I'm so thrilled to be here.

Carol Cox:
I am thrilled to have you here. I'm putting my glasses back on so I can read the chat questions as they come in. So I have some questions prepared for the panelists, but I also we want the questions from you for those of you listening about their thought leadership journey, things that they did along the way, so that to build these incredible platforms that they have now. So while we wait for those questions to come in, let me ask our first question to you, LuAnn. How did you get to 3 million downloads? Because as a podcaster myself, that's not an easy feat. What do you what are specific things that you think attribute to the success of your podcast?

LuAnn Nigara:
Number one, I think being super, super in tune and touch with the needs of who my very tight niche audience is and never losing sight of that. And for for me, I know that business is business and we could be any business owner and substitute that name for interior designer, but for building a platform, go really, really tiny and talk to one person and then the others will come. And so it's that I think it's really having a great handle on the needs of the niche audience, its consistency. It's come hell or high water, the show goes on, you know, it's a marketing machine, it's putting out the shows and it's, you know, having the presence on social media. And and I also say live events every single time I've gone and done a live event. And for all of us as speakers here in the beginning, it's that big combination of free and paid. But every event, something comes from it. So another listener comes who tells another or an opportunity comes and creates another situation. So I say, those are the three pillars. Three keys.

Carol Cox:
That's great, LuAnn. And I know that just from knowing you and watching you, you are extremely generous with your podcast guest, with women in your audience, with your sponsors, with everyone who is involved that you give so much.

LuAnn Nigara:
Yeah, you know, you're right, Carol, because that is another key of it is the collaboration is just really, truly in your core, knowing there's enough for everybody. You know, just keep sharing, just keep telling everybody what an amazing, you know, business coach and what amazing speaking Coach Carroll is. And and it all goes around and comes around because we know that when we each teach the clients that we work with to go after their ideal client, we know that the most amazing interior designer is not the right designer for every client. So it's okay if you tell the share about your friend who maybe is in the same industry or a similar industry, because you're not going to get a yes from the same person anyway. So why not share it, right?

Carol Cox:
Absolutely. Karen. I have a question for you. What role has speaking played in building your thought leadership platform?

Dr. Karen Wilson:
That's a really great question and I think for me, speaking is really giving me the opportunity to really highlight my expertise and and it's really helped me to expand my reach in a way that I had not anticipated and had not planned for. Because in my industry, you know, as a clinical neuropsychologist and someone who is trained in research and clinical skills, you know, we're taught to kind of teach to our own audience. So we teach in a classroom setting. We communicate information to other professionals within our industry. And by doing the work that I do, I'm working with families who have kids who are struggling. And as I was sitting in and I've sat in a number of professional conferences and I'm hearing all of this great information and none of that information information was being disseminated to the people who really needed it and could act on it. And I feel like speaking has given me an opportunity to take the information that I'm being exposed to at these professional conferences and through my experience and training and expertise and share it with people who can really do something with that information and impact lives, which is basically what I want to do. And what what is my mission as a clinical psychologist and now as a speaker. And and that has really been my goal in more recent years, and it has really moved the needle in terms of developing my platform.

Carol Cox:
We have a question from the audience here, which is an excellent question, is how to define thought leadership platform. So what exactly does that mean? So I'll answer that first, and I would love to hear from the rest of you women as well. So to me, a thought leadership platform is related to speaking. It could be writing a book, it could be having a podcast, it could be hosting an event. And a lot of times as we start doing one, then we ended up doing the next one and then we do the next one. So we're creating this platform where people can find us in different ways. Some people are podcast listeners, other people are book readers. Other people like going to events. And so you're eventually you start with one and then you branch out to others. And I know that all three of you have done that. I'm going to bring Tammy in now. Tammy, what impact has it had for you to have a TEDx talk that has had over 2 million views now?

Tammy Lally:
Well, the short answer is it changed everything in the message, the reach. My expertise changed in terms of my being able to work with people all over the world. So prior to TEDx, I was basically a local money coach in Winter Park and helping a lot of the local community. And after the talk overnight, things really changed. And what was really what's been really extraordinary about it is two things. The talk went viral in 2018. So just a couple of years ago. And prior to that time, I had a story and the story was I had to have an office. I had to see everybody face to face. I couldn't go online. It wasn't going to be the same. It wasn't going to be as personal. And I had my business coach kept telling me, get online, get online. Well, I'm slow to grow because I have a lot of perfectionism and insecurities. So when that happened, I had no choice. So I, it pushed me into coaching online as well as over the phone. And what I learned about myself is that I was actually more effective. In on the computer online and on the on the phone, because when you see people in person as a coach, it's kind of like a therapist. There's a lot of emotion happening in the room when you talk about money. So I would see maybe seven people a day.

Tammy Lally:
Now, that's a lot of energy. And what I found is that I started developing a lot of fatigue and I was often quite sick. I often get colds a lot because I hugged the people that came in. I was part of the problem. So it just it did so many things, but it pushed me out of my comfort zone. And that was the first thing it got me out of the story I was telling myself that was completely false. And then it also helped me reach a worldwide audience that let me see that money and money shame is universal. It doesn't affect the people in the United States. It's not it's not just this class of people. It's everybody. It's everybody. And everybody has a similar story about it. So it just gave me just so much more passion about I'm doing the right thing here. And when Ted picked it up, it was just complete validation that that extraordinarily hard day in the days leading up and that day of which was so I had so much compassion watching today. I've never spoke before in my life. That was my first speaking engagement outside of going to a church and talking at church or talking in front of small groups of women. But I had never done anything like that.

Carol Cox:
I did not realize that, Tammy, that that was your first official speaking engagement. Way to go all in.

LuAnn Nigara:
Your very first one.

Carol Cox:
And I know I talk I talk about Tammy a lot on the podcast because she's such a great example of taking a very personal story and universalizing but also being willing to be real and authentic and vulnerable with your story. So lou-ann, let me come back to you. Do you ever get vulnerability hangovers? Because I'm sure you've had discussions on the podcast after 600 episodes where you're like, Oh, did I share that? Did I want to share that?

LuAnn Nigara:
Well, the famous line that I always say is, you know, the show is, you know, it can be edited, but don't worry, 80% of the edits are made. Like I think I listen to it. I'll be like, What are you doing down that rabbit hole? Shut up and come back. But I'll tell you what, to be super vulnerable about it, which is really interesting because it's just happening now. And here I go. Like, I just this is what I do. I'm like, all right, well, maybe I shouldn't, but I'm going to the 600th episode. If you remember on my one year anniversary in podcasting, you interviewed me. And so for the 600 episode, I coincidentally had just interviewed two writers in our space and the interior design space, and literally each one of them, unbeknownst to the other, as we hung up our off air conversation after the interview, said, I would just love to interview you one day. And I was like, I've got a 600 show coming up. And so the first woman I said, Oh, would you do that? Yes. Two weeks later, another writer says the same thing I'd love to interview.

LuAnn Nigara:
So we decide that the two of them are going to go into cahoots and they're going to interview me together. And they did. And the show came out a week ago Friday. A week ago tomorrow. Well, I'm going to tell you what I have asked every person in my inner circle, you know, that outro is ridiculous. I should have just cut the show when I said decide to be excellent. You know, I'm going to read. I know 3000 people already heard it. But, you know, if I change the show today, the next 6000 people won't hear that stupid intro, right? I mean, outro. And so what happens is I got one person on my team is like, listen, I think it was really heartfelt. I think it was good. Another person on my team, like I know you said the word constant, wrong two times, constantly, like I like pulsed over these words. And when I was recording, I'm like, whatever. And now I'm like, This is what you left up as your best work. So yeah, like, I'm out there with things that are yeah. Not so sure there should be out there.

Carol Cox:
I did the same thing sometimes I'm like, not that many people have downloaded this yet. Maybe I can change it. But I don't. I don't. I make myself not change it. And I want to hear from those of you in the chat. If you are podcasters, especially if you've ever done with lou-ann and just talked about where you're like, Oh, maybe I should change that after the fact.

LuAnn Nigara:
Because I think that happens to.

Carol Cox:
A lot of us. Karen, my next question is for you and also about vulnerability hangover. So all the speaking that you're doing virtually now and then in person in the past, have you ever had a vulnerability hangover where you're wondering, did you share too much or. Tell us a little bit about how you approach your speaking engagements and how personal you get.

Dr. Karen Wilson:
To be honest, I had just heard about vulnerability Vulnerability Hangover from your podcast not too long ago. And and at first I was listening to it. I'm thinking I've never had a vulnerability hangover. Maybe it's because I'm not sharing enough personal information, but I think when I look back at it and I think about vulnerability hanging. Over. I think I have had it as a result of decisions I've made in moving toward more speaking, more visibility and stepping more into my thought leadership. And when I think about that, I think about walking away from what the industry says that I should be doing as a clinical neuropsychologist. So in my field, I'm trained. We have six years of training, we have three years of post-doctoral training, if you want to specialize, which I did. And then you're expected to go into academia and teach, do research. And if you're trained as a clinician as I am, do some clinical work. And I did all of those things. And I was the quintessential overachiever where I got early tenure. I was head of a graduate program, I was department chair. And this is where people aspire to be. And what I did after achieving all of those things and realizing that I wanted to make a bigger impact, I knew that if I was going to make a bigger impact, I could not do it. Staying in that place and staying in that industry box that I was in, even though this is where I was supposed to be. And so what I did at the end of December is I retired from the university system and left that position, left a full professor, left a tenured position and stepped out. And I think that that's where I hit my vulnerability because people were asking me, what are you going to do? Why would you leave a tenured position? Don't you know that in ten, 15 years you'll have full benefits? And I couldn't wait 15 years to step into what I feel that I was called to do.

Dr. Karen Wilson:
And I felt that it was more important for me to step out now and to make an impact now than to wait 15 years to get benefits and then step out on that. And so I think the vulnerability hangover came when I made that decision because it was very vulnerable in terms of, this is what I'm doing, I'm stepping away from this, this is why. And there is also the possibility that I could fail. Right. And I think that when you step out and do something that is that goes against the status quo, that is not expected for the box, whatever box that you're in, it puts you it makes you more vulnerable because, again, you wonder about failure, and that's a mindset issue. And then you also get the criticisms from people. I had a woman who I respected who was older and who had retired and been in the industry for 20 some years, who said, Why would you do that? Don't you know that you can retire from the system and you can teach for the rest of your life? You basically have a job for the rest of your life. And so I think The Hangover was after I left and having to deal with the pushback and the questioning and what does that mean? And you're turning down a six figure. You no longer have a six figure salary. What are you going to do? And I think that's where the vulnerability came in, because it made me second guess my decision for a split second. I didn't stay there.

Carol Cox:
That is very brave and bold of you, Karen, to do that. And I totally hear you about if you don't do it now and do what? Where you want to go with yourself then when else to do it. So thank you for sharing that. We do have a question for Tammy about TEDTalks. So one person wanted to know is how did you get your selected for your TEDx talk and then how long did you train? Did you prepare for it?

Tammy Lally:
This is a good story. I'm going to try to keep it brief. Back story is this, you know, I always wanted to do a TEDx talk and that particular year, the beginning of 2017, it was just on my list, my goal list, the New Year's. It was on there. And I actually have spoke in front of groups now that I think about it, but not in that prepared way with Ted. But anyway, so I had an event in January at the university and there was a college in and Orlando where I spoke to the business team or school students. And when that was complete, the woman that facilitated it said, you really should take this and do a TED talk. And I was like, I'm going to do a TEDx talk, and of course I'm doing it. And she's like, Well, what are you doing it? What are you doing? And I'm like, I don't know, but I'm doing one and you just validate it that I'm going to do it. It was just crazy. So I said to her, I really need a speaking coach. This is a true story. And she said, Well, I know somebody that's great. And I said, Who are Carol? And Carol and I had met the year earlier where I was there and was the speaker at one of her groups, and I had told my story. So on the way home in the car, I called Carol and I said, Hey, blah, blah, blah, blah, do you do TED Talks? You can do that? And Carol said, Yeah, well, which one are you doing? And I said, I don't know, I don't I don't know what I'm doing. And she said, Well, I'll have you apply.

Tammy Lally:
I didn't know you had to. I didn't know anything. So fast forward, I'm sure it was just synchronicity. And Carol was reached out by Ted Orlando, who was restarting, looking for a speaker. She mentioned my name, the organizer. I was actually coaching a family member of hers. And she's like, I know her. And then. They just. They invited me. It's the truth. That's the truth. They invited me to be a speaker at the TEDx Orlando. And so when you do a local event like that, there is a specific amount of talks that are submitted to ted.com, which is the mother. Right, the big, big mama. And Ted has a selection process for whatever. For what? For that year. And my talk was selected. So it was just an extraordinary synchronistic. But but the. But what I want you to hear is that it was always my intention how I was going to get there. I didn't know. And then it just lined up and I said yes. Because when the organizer from TEDx Orlando called talking about vulnerability hangover and she said, Would you do it? I said, Yes. And my talks very personal. And I had to call my mother out. And I had to talk about my brother. And you don't do that in my family. You know, you don't talk about the father. So when I hung up the phone for the next three days, I was in a shame spiral about how am I going to do this? How am I going to not hurt my mother? As always, I was always protecting my mother and I did it anyway. And my mother understood and moved into her own healing process as a result of it. So.

Carol Cox:
Thank you for sharing that, Tammy. And a couple of things that stood out for me is, number one, be involved in your local community. I know it's a little bit more challenging now because we don't have in-person events, but a lot of community organizations are doing virtual events. It doesn't have to be necessarily a TED chapter, but just community groups, business groups, networking groups, because that's how word gets around when they are looking for speakers for different events, including TEDx. And the other thing, Tami, that I loved is that you said yes, even though it was it felt scary. You still said yes. And look where you are today. All right, LuAnn, let's go back to you. We still have a few minutes left in this panel discussion, so keep your questions coming in the chat. LuAnn, if there's there are women out there who are listening and they're on the early stages of their speaking journey and really their thought leadership journey. What piece of advice would you give to them as they're going forward?

LuAnn Nigara:
First of all, belief comes first, right? You have to believe that you that you're worthwhile, that you have something to say and you don't have to be tapped on the shoulder by somebody else. You can just decide that you can and you should. And the way Karen has said it, no, I don't need the 100 grand know the six figures and the 15 years it's now. I feel it now. So and the same with Tammy. She said it's now and she dealt with and figured out how she would have that tentative and that probably very difficult situation with their family. And so the thing is, if if you're called to do it. Then. Then just know that it's your call to do it for a reason. And then you. Then you've got to figure out your point of view on it. Then you've got to figure out why you like what you have to say that's different on this. And and this is what I find. Trips a lot of us up right and you taught me this you taught me this Carol when you help me four years ago now create my keynote speech, which, by the way, has served me a billion times because I know that keynote so well that I slice it and dice it up for every event and opportunity I have.

LuAnn Nigara:
And I literally visualize the way you help me construct it. I literally visualize the pieces, and depending on the audience, I just slice one piece out, put another piece in, come back and do whatever so well worth it. And what you taught me was that the simplest stories in our life, which feel and seem to us possibly as inconsequential, are the way to reach somebody else. And you have to reach that somebody else. You have to connect with them. And so I think it's belief first action, get qualified help and coaching on it. Just like anything else, you know, you can believe you can drive a car, but we'd love you to take a couple of lessons. You know what I'm saying? Just don't go out in the £2,000 machine. And so if you want to do your best, just like anything else you do, you invest in those who are expert to help you do it, but figure out your point of view and deliver it to the world because we're all waiting to hear it.

Carol Cox:
Absolutely. We'll do it. I think that's a great place for us to wrap up this panel. For those of you listening, don't forget, you can connect with these panelists as well as our other speakers and panelists in the chat and the People tab. If you also go to the summit website page speaking your brand slash summit, all the speakers and panelists are listed there with links to their websites and their social media. So connect with them there and know you have we had some questions that we didn't get a chance to get to, so connect with them and social media and also in the chat lou-ann. Tammy Karen, thank you so much for being here today and for sharing your wisdom and your experiences with our attendees. I am so grateful for your time.

LuAnn Nigara:
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Carol Cox:
Wasn't that fabulous? I am so grateful for Tammy Lally, LuAnna Nigara, and Dr. Karen Wilson for being on our panel at our last summit in October 2020. Don't forget to register for our upcoming summit on April 1st, 2021. Go to speaking your brand slash summit again. That's speaking your brand slash summit. Cannot wait to see you there. Until next time. Thanks for listening.

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